Curse

Ira Blinks · Aug 21, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kern Wolf

I think the OP needs to learn how to play an effective ele build before saying that warriors need to be nerfed, or that eles don't deal enough damage.
My guild has a number of eles that are lauging at this. And for laughs, sometimes they ask me, "How do you deal any damage", to which I reply, "How do YOU guys deal any?"
They LOVE their profession, and are damn god at dealing damage.
Me? Yes, Im a warrior; we got our nerf when ANET screwed with shields/Knight's Armor/runes. But the fact is that I learned to make the necessary changes, and feel pretty good with my damage output. My guildies have played longer than me; to them, if you can't adjust, don't play the profession.
Did you go through Prophecies/Factions as an ele? Or did you go on a few missions/quests, and decide that the "damage" that eles deal out wasn't enough for you?

I did. I have 5mil XP on my ele. Does that count?
And you know what I found? The most threatening ele builds i could do involve heavy mesmer degen or recurve bow and bunch of interrupts. That ofcourse not what I play in PvE, because in PvE everyone wants a nuker (not realizing that nuker is only a support role for its knockdowns and burning).
I also have a necro who owns all of the PvE with cookie-cutter builds like nothing and laughs at all those "zomg im doing damage!" ele dummies and by far more respected in PvP.

Wanna cry about absorption nerf? Go ahead, you just lost all your credibility there by thinking absorption nerf affected anything but solo farming builds.

So how about you e-bay yourself a clue and get personal only if you have something to back it up, mkay?

makosi · Aug 21, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Warriors have to run RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU to do ANY damage. If you slow down a warrior, he's next to useless.

Really? I've been hit by a warrior ten feet away from me and anet gave them some good snares and speed buffs skills which overcompensated for that. I agree with the OP.

Nerf:

Wild Blow - unless the warrior's blinded, he's guaranteed to remove your stance AND get a critical hit.

Iresistible blow - defeats the purpose of my ranger using that defensive stance with the atrocious recharge and duration.

Swift Chop - so you block/evade the attack yet you still suffer a deep wound? Makes no sense.

The game balance definitely tips in favour of warriors and its strange that people were upset about the absorbtion nerf. Why do warriors get this extra damage reducing rune anyway? Think of it like that.

Chilly Ress · Aug 21, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Warriors have to run RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU to do ANY damage. If you slow down a warrior, he's next to useless.

That's why there are monks to remove cripple/hexes....I suppose the monks you play with/against are below par...

Theus · Aug 21, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I'm sorry,but if you are having trouble killing warriors as an Elementalist,Simply put,you suck.

There are hundreds of builds as an Elementalist you can use (As long as you use Earth/Water/Air..Fire sucks for PvP.) for defense agaisnt warriors.

Chilly Ress · Aug 21, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

I'm sorry,but if you are having trouble killing warriors as an Elementalist,Simply put,you suck.

There are hundreds of builds as an Elementalist you can use (As long as you use Earth/Water/Air..Fire sucks for PvP.) for defense agaisnt warriors.

GW isnt a 1v1 game, have you not noticed how there are no 1v1 arenas whatsoever? Also, wait, no, your whole post has to do with 1v1, and since 1v1 has nothing to do with GW, it means nothing to me. Sorry

Kern Wolf · Aug 21, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

I did. I have 5mil XP on my ele. Does that count?
And you know what I found? The most threatening ele builds i could do involve heavy mesmer degen or recurve bow and bunch of interrupts. That ofcourse not what I play in PvE, because in PvE everyone wants a nuker (not realizing that nuker is only a support role for its knockdowns and burning).
I also have a necro who owns all of the PvE with cookie-cutter builds like nothing and laughs at all those "zomg im doing damage!" ele dummies and by far more respected in PvP.

Wanna cry about absorption nerf? Go ahead, you just lost all your credibility there by thinking absorption nerf affected anything but solo farming builds.

So how about you e-bay yourself a clue and get personal only if you have something to back it up, mkay?

My, my, touchy, aren't we?
1. I didn't direct my remarks to you, IRA, but to the OP;
2. I'm not crying about the absorption nerf; in fact, I look at the nerfs as another challenge to overcome;
3. my remarks were not a personal attack; I honestly wanted to know if the OP went through the game as an ele, or if he did just a few missions/quests.
4. As stated through many posts, XP doesn't mean jack.

Theus · Aug 21, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

GW isnt a 1v1 game, have you not noticed how there are no 1v1 arenas whatsoever? Also, wait, no, your whole post has to do with 1v1, and since 1v1 has nothing to do with GW, it means nothing to me. Sorry

Did I say it was a 1v1 game?

No.I meant that in anything HoH,GvG,AB,RA,TA, A Aeromancer for example,can keep warriors blinded CONSTANTLY.With skills like Blinding Flash,Air Attunement and Elemental Attunement.3 Energy for a 10 second blind that recharges in 4 seconds.

Or as a Geomancer the use of Ward agaisnt Melee and Wards agaisnt Foes,Have you ever tried killing targets that constantly run about in both Melee and Foes as a Warrior?

Or as a Hydromancer,using skills like Blurred Vision,most of the water spells that not only cause damage but slow down targets,and skills like Water Trident which is GREAT agaisnt targets that are slowed.

Chilly Ress · Aug 21, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

I'm sorry,but if you are having trouble killing warriors as an Elementalist,Simply put,you suck.

umm....sure

With blind(no ones uses attunements in PvP-learn about max enchant removal please)monks can remove it -or other classes with draw/extinguish in most cases, just as quickly as they put it on. Wards are the fix all, wards limit restrict movement, and if the opposing team has any AoE and you refuse to move from the ward, well, gg

Chilly Ress · Aug 21, 2006, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Did I say it was a 1v1 game?

Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Or as a Hydromancer,using skills like Blurred Vision,most of the water spells that not only cause damage but slow down targets,

Obviously, you havent played ele, as Blurred vision doesnt cause ANY damage, go sit down please.

Ira Blinks · Aug 21, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Condition wise, Ele's have... daze... which is rare to inflict.

this is exactly what im talking about. This is an argument based on assertion, based on the argument itself. Dazed is rare thus eles are fine.
Umm no, dazed is rare (in PvP), because it is not needed, and not because it is hard to pull it of. There is no threat, thus there are no countermeasures used.

Quote:

*snip clearly biased crap*

ok so let me count this time, ok?

Warriors? Well, warriors can be crippled/slowed down, which doesn't really help much if warrior's goal is to kill an NPC, which is often the case. But even if target is a real player... all it means you gonna be playing cat-mouse game forever, because if you can shutdown warrior it doesn't mean you can kill one, since they have decent self-healing and high defenses. While for ele shutdown and death is pretty much the same thing (notice how most interrupts/strips conveniently add nice chunk of damage if target was casting a spell)
Same goes for Inpetitude/Clumsiness/SS/etc. It *might* stop warrior from attacking, but it won't kill him.
Warriors can be blinded... which only means he will have to waste precious 1/4 a second to mend it or put it right back on you

Warriors can be weakened. Even if weakness is not removed it is only affecting pressure but not damage from skills, so it barely qualifies as shutdown.

Eles are affected by huge amount of interrupt and shutdown skills. Seriously amount of caster hate in this game is enormous. And eles affected by them the most, since they are the worst kind of caster - slow, fragile with huge recast times.
The fact that that every bloody class in this game (except monks and eles) has an interrupt means something. But the way you put it is "oh and eles just hated by interrupts, but thats nothing serious...". Excuse me, ability to cast spells is not serious, that is EVERYTHING an ele have.
Eles are massively affected by enchantment stripping. The whole enchantment hate thing is mostly balanced towards monk enchantments because monk can reapply them quiet often. Eles are screwed big time with huge recharge and cast times.
Eles can be... ugh... KILLED. Sure you could waste your whole bar on armor buffs and self healing, but that means you are doing nothing else but trying to survive, while warrior is still harder to kill and still does alot of damage.

So before you talk about shit coming out of my mouth, check your own, ok?

Theus · Aug 21, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

umm....sure

With blind(no ones uses attunements in PvP-learn about max enchant removal please)monks can remove it -or other classes with draw/extinguish in most cases, just as quickly as they put it on. Wards are the fix all, wards limit restrict movement, and if the opposing team has any AoE and you refuse to move from the ward, well, gg

Um..Theres a counter to every different strategy in this game nitwit.Using the "But theres a counter for that strategy" Argument is retarded.If you want to go on with such a retarded argument,lets say I have a monk with Spell Breaker on my Aeromancer.Draw Extinguish..Hmm..I have Diversion on those classes using it...and I have a Psychic Distraction mesmer on the player using AoE attacks.

See how retarded the counter argument is?

Chilly Ress · Aug 21, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Theus, this whole argument started with you saying that if you cant kill a warrior as an ele, you suck. Can we all agree that a statement such as that is narrowminded and wrong, and continue?

BahamutKaiser · Aug 21, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I don't think wild blow is broken, cannot be evaded and cannot be blocked are neccessities for Stance breaking techniques to work, and it is sad that all stance breaking techniques don't have this.

Many stances have massive evasion or blocking which gives them a powerful defensive advantage, and like all good skills, a counter is neccessary. A stance break that will suffer from the massive evasive or blocking stregths of a stance is a joke, which is why Wild Strike (Assassin) should also be unblockable/unevadable.

Likewise skills like Swift Chop and its sword counterpart are counters to Stances or enchantments which grant high evasion or blocking, saying these skills should be altered is an obvious mistake.

Warriors strengths are standard, so even without the use of skills they're base effectiveness is heavy, as well as having strong skills to overcome the weakness of melee range, this isn't broken, it is just a neccessity. The problem lies in that other classes don't meet the same standard of capability.

The Elementist has the worst armor grade, and requires massive energy storage + energy management skills just to maintain a steady offensive output. And if the Elementist is bringing all the skills neccessary to deal effective damage, then he is lacking the skill slots to cover himself thoughoughly with defensive or imparing techniques.

Elementist build allows him to get some effective use out of some other classe skills, but that doesn't make up for the lack of power in his skills, for the massive amount of energy elementist expends and long recast times on such costly spells, elementist can only slam on an enemy every couple of seconds, wile his natural attack and defense are little to be recognized.

Elementist needs more budget spells to be useful for general damage and effectiveness, not just for himself, but for other classes to utilize as well. And his exsisting low frequency (high recast) spells need to pack a punch that makes up for occupying a skill slot with something that you can only use once every 30-60 seconds. His Glyphs are a joke, the fact that they take up a skill slot and need to be activated before each skill is a major cost, the potency needs to be higher, and the cast time needs to be removed. The DoT spells are a mockery of realistic tactical function, many of them do not do enough damage fast enough, long enough, or often enough to be effective, or in an effective location, serving as a comical defensive tool against monsters who arn't realy being hurt, instead of tactically placing damage over significant periods of time, often enough to fortify and overturn situations.

I've hashed these skills over and over again, and the short of it is that a major redefinition effort needs to be done on elementist tactical effectiveness and skill cost (including significant factors like elementists low armor and weapon value, skill slot cost, and recast cost). The major improvement I think Ele skills could use is DoT usefulness, we should be able to place them on any location we can target, whether it be friend, foe, self or even on a selectable object (like a sign or a flag stand), enemies should not run from DoT damage unless it is causing added interruption (Meteor Shower and Maelstorm) mainly on casters, and conditions like blind and burning from skills like Searing Heat and Eruption need to either be applied in small amounts per hit, or applied in full at the begining of the cast (even if it is in smaller amounts). And DoT spells need to be steadily recastable, as if the cost, lack of damage, and evasive options are not weakness.... the least we should be able to do is put them down frequently.

I think the frequency of skill casting (recast time) is the biggest oversight on Elementist skills and some other classes skills, unlike attackers, casters do not have any passive damage and a minimum passive defense (least amount of armor), they have to use skills to compensate and the cost of the skills justify their effects. Because Casters do not have the passive output or resistance of an attacker class, they need to have (or the skills they do have) frequent skills to use in order to compensate, the damage an elementist can take or deal without skills is meaningless, his skills should show the tradeoff in effectiveness vs an attack class who does more without skills, and yeilds effective damage for his frequenly useable skills which often cost less as well.

I can't agree that warrior is broken, in fact I think some of his defensive skills should be improved, expecially in tactics, as well as adding unblockable and unevadable status to all stance breaking skills as a proper counter. Elementist is a far away from meeting that standard, and it isn't just a far way from warrior, it is a standard which holds true to mesmers, necromancers, Monks and Rangers, Elementist effectiveness is weak, Warrior is fine. I think Assassin and Ritualist also share many of these weaknesses too, not just elementist, the shear lack of capabilities and frequency Assassin suffers and the massive downtime Ritualist suffers makes their skills quite unusuable in many situations, bringing all classes and all skills to a reasonable standard of effectiveness is a strong balance issue, and just because each class can do something effective with some combinations of skills does not mean that they are overall balanced in power or usefulness as the par.

As for all this BS about what your friends say or what you "feel" is balanced based on your mindless claims, who gives a damn? Unless you have singificant insight or justification for you claims, which you can explain and defend, than you really just have an opinion which has no bearing or deniability against anyone elses opinion. I, for one, would appreciate if all this worthless bantering about who does or doesn't understand to cease, you have nothing more than an opinion til you can back it.

Since the introduction of Sentinal Armor Warrior can now net well into 116 defense (overall) which is a massive offset against elemental damage outmatching even Ranger (70 all, 30 element, 15 single element), as well as physical damage, and then physical damage reduction runes. Elemental damage reduction runes? they certainly don't belong on Warrior as if he needs it, a bold faced laugh with spittle on anyone who wants to complain about the miniscule amount of extra damage Warrior doesn't really suffer from elemental damage. Please stop this nonsense, really, it is making my cheeks hurt from excessive laughter.

Phoenix Illusion · Aug 21, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

As time goes on the game evolves.

Right now warriors are great DPS dealers as long as so anti warrior hate comes their way. Usually the hate does indeed come and either the DPS lowers quite a bit or the warror ends up dead with no DPS.

As for the constant ele debate, again the game evolves over time. While I do think it rediculous that an ele's DPS is so slow, creative builds such as the flash bot have extended ele usefulness outside of the damage sector.

Nightfall will bring change to the playing style of both the warrior and ele. I only hope it brings changes that will end these warrior and ele debates.

Ira Blinks · Aug 21, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kern Wolf

My, my, touchy, aren't we?
1. I didn't direct my remarks to you, IRA, but to the OP;

well ok... But first it is "Ira" not "IRA"... it is a human name and it got nothing to do with Ireland.

Quote:

2. I'm not crying about the absorption nerf; in fact, I look at the nerfs as another challenge to overcome;

there is a major difference. Absorption nerf actually did make sense from both balance and pure logic point of view. The current state of eles does not make sense from either.

Quote:

3. my remarks were not a personal attack; I honestly wanted to know if the OP went through the game as an ele, or if he did just a few missions/quests.

Well it did sound like "who da hell are you to say that?!" kind of remark. Either way, there are alot of people who did all that (including me) and they agree with OP regardless of wherever he knows what he is talkiing about or not. Maybe not in nerf the warrior part, but thats beside the point.

Quote:

4. As stated through many posts, XP doesn't mean jack.

I will have to disagree. People say same about FoW armor, and you know what? Screw them! because they jaelos of something they don't have (yes, I have FoW on my ele to).
Sure you could e-bay or 55 farm all day, but not that many people are that cheap. XP (and so does FoW) does mean much more than a jack to me. If it doesn't to you, then how do you even say who is experienced and who is not?

johan the destroyer · Aug 21, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

I agree with increasing the elementalist's damage output, but where did the "Nerf warriors" come from? Why would warriors need to be nerfed in order for Elementalists to be buffed.

Oh, and about FoW armor and XP:
FoW armor does mean a lot, but it means less than it could since there IS a chance that the person is an e-bayer.
XP doesn't mean too much. I mean sure, if you have 20 million XP you have probably played a long time but it can also mean that you farm all day.

In both cases there is no way of knowing how the person got what they have, so rating people by either FoW armor, XP, or even by rank (IWAY and spike anyone?) is pointless, or not as accurate as it could be. The best way to find out if someone is experienced or is not is to get to know them. In something like a PuG, I don't care if someone is experienced or not because, as long as they can do their job, they're fine.
Maybe went a little off there...but there it is.

dgb · Aug 21, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizmo Loco

With a single strike, perhaps. A Lightning Orb with 16 Air? But does that give them the best DPS, I dont think so.

Helllo Eviscerate with a crit.

The Chimpster · Aug 21, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

I definatley have to agree with kaisers comments in reguards to the way an elementist buff should happen.

I noiticed that a lot of the counter arguments pretty much consisted of the fact that Elementists had a lot of useful support spells. This isn't their primary purpose, you only have to look at how many damage skills (however poor they may be) they have to see that a damage dealer is what a-net had in mind when creating the profession.
Don't we have enough support classes already? The ritulist, monk, mesmer, necro and soon to be paragon? The ironic thing is that most of these so called support classes are better at dishing out damage then the elementist.

The balance needs to be shifted, quite urgently I think.

Knight Othin Of War · Aug 21, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

/not signed for making the warrior do less damage
/not signed for making an ele do more damage
the game is already balanced as it is with skills etc, they'll probably add more high damage skills for an ele in the next GW

Avarre · Aug 21, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancour

Quote from Factions manual: "With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession."

Quote from Prophecies manual: "They can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession."

As I said in the post you quoted, Elementalists in the GW universe are not primary damage dealers but spike/support/etc characters. I don't believe it said they had to have the most constant high damage of any class, but they do have the highest spike / instant damage.

The problem of elementalists on GW is their lack of sustainable damage.